- Starting the Business
- The reason For Selling
- Different Brokers
- Receiving the offers
- Deciding NOT to Sell
- Optimizing the Business
Mentioned in this episode:
- Mark Brenwall
- Before The Exit
Today we have a very special guest on the show, my good friend Mark Brenwall and before I introduce Mark, I want to give a bit of context as to why you might be interested in listening to this episode. Usually if a broker or an advisor is talking about someone selling a business they love to interview them when the process goes perfect and they’ve sold the business. Which we've done some of these as well. Today we're going to talk about the decision that Mark made to not sell his business after going through the sale process. I'm really excited to dig into that Mark. Thanks for coming on the show.
Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. Happy to share.
Awesome. All right, just as a way of context, I thought it'd be cool for you to introduce yourself maybe start with where your based because that's kind of interesting. Then if you could give us a little bit of background on why you moved to Thailand or why he left the U.S as well.
Sure. I spent before I left the US, which is a six years ago now, six years and a handful of days. I lived in San Francisco for over 15 years and while I was in San Francisco I worked at a lot of different web agency style things. I was a front end coder and I got to see San Francisco during the early dot.com boom. Also ride out the crash of the boom and just got to really 17 years you can imagine got a really good feel for that city. After being there for long at some point I just felt like it's a very expensive place to be and if you're not really getting the most out of the city, going to all the coolest restaurants, the shows and really capitalizing on the fact that you're in that town. Then it's really just ends up being an expensive place to live. I'd done it all. Like I pretty much feel like I had completed my San Francisco journey. I decided to kind of test the waters and see what about this entrepreneurial lifestyle or expat lifestyle. I moved to Nicaragua for a few months in my thinking was that, okay, it's foreign enough that I'll get the experience. It's also a four hour flight back to San Francisco if I decide it's not for me and I liked it. Then I came back to my loft in San Francisco and I started to do cleaning and selling some stuff and gearing up for the big move. Then I spent another four months, I think in Boulder, Colorado did some mountain biking. I like that even more. Then I decided to come back to San Francisco and basically sell everything and move out. Moved to the Philippines first kinda just sold everything and got a suitcase and hopped on a plane. The first place I went to was taboo and I chose the Philippines because I had been to Southeast Asia several times and I really liked it. Particularly Thailand and Vietnam and never been to the Philippines, I thought I know they speak English there, probably it's just like Thailand that speaks English. Right, of course it's not like it's not, no country is like any other country. I quickly discovered that the Philippines is just wasn't where I felt like I wanted to be based but I got really lucky and I met some really great friends there and we're still really good friends today.
They are also in the expat entrepreneurial space and really started the foundation of the lifestyle I have now. In fact the friends I met there even introduced me to my now wife who is a Filipina. We've been married for two years and when I had met her I decided that I was going to stay in the Philippines long enough to see if the relationship had legs. I told her like if it does work then I don't want to live in the Philippines. I said let's try Chiang Mai, Thailand back then it was just coming up as a place where expats were kind of basing themselves now that's all changed a lot in the last five years. It's booming with expats now but let's just try it out and we'll stay there for three months and go somewhere else and we've never left. We've been here for five years now. We absolutely love it here it's a great place to be based. It's a great place to come home to. Also we spend several months a year in other places and we liked that too.
I think we met about four or five years ago in my. It must've been fairly soon after you moved there. That's awesome. That's great. Cool. Okay, well that gives us a little bit of context on your background. Once decided to take the leap to leave the US and then move to Chiang Mai, how are you funding this? Did you were using savings? Did you have any other business operations going on?
I had a bit of savings and it wasn't a ton of when I left like I said San Francisco is very expensive and I was lucky to scrape together about, I don't know maybe a little less than 20K and what I'm calling like survival cash. Yes. I had some retirement funds but the only thing, liquid amount of money that I left with was about $18,000, which is funny. Looking back now it seems really risky but at the time it felt like plenty. I had a small adsense business, a couple of websites making, I don't know back then probably like $2,500 to $3,000 in a month and that was it. I got to a place in the Philippines that I could afford and I just got my hustle on. I found a couple of consulting gigs that I could do remotely. I worked on those adsense sites and I just made it work.
Yeah. Sometimes it just it takes cutting the cord and you kind of figure it out. Right.
It definitely feels like I'm jumping out of an airplane without a parachute but investing is kind of now looking back. Of course it's the best decision I ever made. I also know that I trusted myself to be my own parachute in and I'm glad it worked out.
Yeah, for sure. Cool. Well let's jump forward a little bit to when you started your current brand and we don't need to talk about the actual brand name. We'll keep that out of this story. I think the pieces of this story of are actually more interesting but one thing you did was you that I really liked and also the investors really liked that we were talking to which we'll get to in a minute was you created a brand serving one particular target market and also you didn't start with physical products selling on Amazon with this brand. Could you tell us a little bit about when you started the brand, why and then the transition to selling on Amazon?
At some point I could see the writing on the wall with the adsense sites. To me it just didn't, it wasn't a heartwarming business model I mean if I'm honest with myself. I was really just creating garbage on the internet trying to trick search engines into sending any traffic and then hoping they click on ads to go away from my page. That just isn't really a great business model. I thought well while these things are still working, I'm going to start to find some other revenue sources. Again, this is now five years ago or a little more. I spent some time just building niche specific facebook pages. Facebook's changed a lot but it's still still a viable thing to do. I thought well let me just start like five or six different niches and see which ones I can build.
Then the idea was to turn them into like affiliate marketing tools. I started some facebook pages around things like, I don't remember completely all of them but like tattoo artists and nursing students. I don't remember all the other ones but I stumbled on one that just really took off and on facebook it's a niche that's very social and very engaged and facebook was like the perfect place to start this brand idea but really the whole idea then was just to build this community and engage with them and get them to engage with each other. Then refer to things like other physical products or maybe t-shirts or ebooks or training, that kind of stuff. I started doing that and it started doing pretty well and I think some months I would make as much as 10,000 bucks. Right now it's awesome. I don't know how sustainable that would have been if I didn't transition to a physical products but it was really a great way to test the market.
Yeah. I guess building the audience first because you’d been gaming the system with the adsense sites that kind of made it feel more like a real business. If we fast forward, some mutual friends of ours were doing started Amazon basically. That's how you got into that. Could you talk a little bit about that and then we'll jump into why you are wanting to sell?
Sure. I moved after we moved to Chiang Mai, I met some people here that have had started selling on Amazon at that time were pretty small sellers. But one of my friend's Ben specifically said, hey you should think about selling a product. I always considered it but it just seems like such a big leap like how am I going to make a product and sell it to anybody? And he just kind of walk me through the whole Amazon ecosystem. It took a long time, that took a lot of faith and a lot of risk. I'm thinking back like, Oh, I'm gonna talk to someone in China and I'm going to source the product and somehow get it to Amazon. Seems crazy. Right?
In hindsight China's close. I was In Chiang Mai to two years ago now, and I flew up to speak at a conference in Shenzhen and it was like a three hour flight. It's like, it's right there. But yeah it still seems like such a big leap if he's not done it before. Right.
But it's a very different culture, right? I think it's the cultural leap that just seems almost insurmountable. Like, how does this work? To be honest with you if I was going to recommend that anybody do this, that's like, you just have to keep facing the problem and then surmounting the problem how do I find a sourcing person? Well, get online and start looking for sourcing people in China and talked to a few and then we'll just keep walking down the path and that's what I did. Luckily there's a bunch of people here in Chiang Mai that I could use as reference because they've done it.
Yeah, absolutely fast forward three, four years you've got a really nice business running your brand as hyper focused on one target market it makes it easy to find new products. Your part of this niche as well. You get the clients, the customer, it's cruising along. You're making a nice living out of it. Why the thought on or what was the catalyst to make you think you'd I want to sell this business?
Yeah, well lots of things really I'm in the community of people that selling your business is a bit of a feather in your cap. There's a bit of ego there. That's one part of it, certainly. Also the idea of this sort of fantasy idea of retiring early is another part of it. What the reality of that is actually like is something we'll probably talk about in a minute but that the idea of it is really enticing. Then another big part of it and probably a bigger part of it then I give it credit for is fear, right? Fear with any business. Anybody who's built a business that is somewhat successful, is going to get to a point where they're afraid that everything is going to crumble. Right? Yes, whatever skills I have that got my business to this point are probably very different from the skills I need to keep growing my business further or to even keep my business at this stage for a long time. The idea is like, well let me just sell it while things are good, take my money and I don't know move to a deserted island.
I love it. I mean a lot of our clients have similar similar reasons but people usually aren't that honest with the public or even to be completely frank, to be that honest with themselves to know that fear plays into a reason to sell your business as a real thing. I think we need to acknowledge that. Okay, cool. That makes sense. What about the preparing for sale process? I'd love to walk through how that looked for you and in particular, I know you interviewed a lot of brokers and advisors in the space and you obviously know a lot of people that have either built large businesses and or sold them in this space. Could you walk us through how that looked from your perspective?
I'm in this community of people that, that have experienced selling their business it was pretty easy for me to get some referrals of people who I should talk to and I talked to everybody, anybody who was referred to me. It was a quick email here's who I am, what I'm thinking about doing, here's what my business looks like at a high level, would you like to talk about it? I talked to probably something like seven to 10 different agencies or brokers, some big, someone man shops and just wanting to get a feel for what was the on boarding process like what kind of personality does the broker have that I'm talking to? Do they even respond? How fast do they respond? Just kind of get a feel for who it is that fits my personality and somebody I would like to work with and just knowing that it's just like, then I would have that first conversation and then I just kept narrowing it down.
Some just didn't respond, some people found out I lived in Thailand and couldn't make the time work. Those decisions were easy to cut those people out. When I really wanted to just make that decision, honestly, it was like a gut feeling do I trust this person? What kind, what size of businesses did, does he work with? How big of sales does he usually do? How many clients does he work with at the same time? Those kinds of questions. How many deals does he make in a year? Even though like I would ask those questions honestly if I got right down to it was just like, do I like this person? Do I feel like he's going to work for my best interest?
For sure. Would you recommend people do it, probably sounds obvious but what you recommend if someone's looking to sell that business to talk, to go through a process like you did and talk to as many people as possible?
I absolutely would. What's really interesting to is people would say like, well I think your business is worth this. The deviance in numbers was quite shocking. You know, someone would say, well I think your business is worth $600,000, someone else would say, I think your business is worth a million and a half. I'm like, that's just crazy. First of all that it's wildly different. But then as I went through the process I've learned a lot about how brokers. Some brokers will give you a high number and then list your product and your business knowing that it probably won't sell for what they listed it at and just kind of wear you down to a point where you're going to sell. Even if you talk to several different brokers and one's like well I think your business is worth $10,000,000. Don't just go with that person dig a little deeper and find out okay, well generally when you list business, how often does it actually sell for that in this price? Ask those kinds of questions.
Yeah, for sure. I think that's a great idea. Getting constant context and perspective is always a good thing when it comes to selling an asset. But you've spent years building, had sleepless nights. It's your baby awesome. Okay. Luckily you chose us, which was awesome and we worked through the sale process. Let's fast forward to when we actually had the business listed for sale, we started getting some interest and started talking to buyers once we actually started getting on calls with buyers that we're picking your business apart because there's a lot of businesses for sale. What was that process like? The first few calls and first interests that we've got in the business?
What's it like? I mean to me it was honestly, it was pretty fun to do because I feel pretty good about the business that I built and I'm pretty proud of it. It was kind of like a platform to just brag a little bit. I was happy and I also felt very good about the value that this business would be to the right buyer. Like I wasn't trying to sell something that I hope they wouldn't find the leaky tire. I really believed it was a good business.I felt like I had lot to say and I also really take this business seriously. And I pretty much had an answer for everything they would ask me. Right. Yeah, overall I thought it was an interesting experience and a lot it was kind of fun to meet all these different buyers and find out what their objectives were and if we had a way to meet in the middle somehow.
The business had a real cross section of appeal to a really wide range of buyer and investors from private people to maybe they've got a corporate gig than working at and they're looking to replace that income and the questions they were asking and the interest they had right through to really strategic high level people. We managed to get quite a few offers for the business. I'm right at the end we got, we got an offer that when we first spoke you said, look this is what I need it in my mind. That was pretty much a perfect offer after going through all of those calls, how did you make the decision to say, look, I'm not selling this business.
Sure this is a story I've told a million times. The way that it broke down was we basically got two offers at the end and the one before the last one was very close to what I asked for assuming that all the numbers worked out went through due diligence and the offer still stayed the same and you know, and he actually ended up paying all of the earn out that was suggested I would have walked away with the number that I wanted in the beginning.
I took that number and I looked at it but see this is the first time in my life that I actually looked at what you call deal structure. I sell products on Amazon I don't know what deal structured really means. For those people that don't know a deal structure mean it basically means and correct me if I'm wrong here, it basically means like here are the components of this offer. Those could be anything from like here's the money that I want to put down here's the terms that I want. They could be anything, assuming the business does well I'll give you this. If the business doesn't do well I'll give you that. I'll pay for your inventory over time or upfront. There's a lot of bits and pieces to a deal.
I talked to a couple other friends of mine who had sold businesses about this offer and they very quickly found some flaws in it or not necessarily flaws but things I didn't think about. Like for instance Mark a lot of times, not a lot of times, it's not uncommon for people not to get paid their earn out, right? An earn-out is Mark I'll pay you a million dollars today. Then all the profit that I earned for the next three years, we'll go back to you or some portion of the profit or whatever until you're fully paid out. There was some concern over, you know, did this operator have the chops to continue to run my business? Well, and you know, what assurances did I have that I would actually earn the earn-out right?
The more that I talked about this with people, the more I started to feel very uncomfortable with the offer as it stood. I talked to you Coran and we just put together a counter offer which the guy ended up not really agreeing with and all of this is just like there was a lot of time involved here because as soon as a lot of emotions too, like the emotion of like, oh we got the offer and I'm talking to my wife and we got the offer, we got the number that we're looking for. We're very excited. And then, you know, digging a little deeper, scratching under the surface a little bit, oh, you know, what, maybe the deal isn't really a enough or, or exactly what I'm looking for.
There's too much risk involved in the offer and I continued to talk to my wife and we decided that you know of all the offers we got and we got several offers on the business. Some of them were things we didn't really even think were real offers up to this one that we got which was an offer. It was a good offer but still none of them to us felt like this was what the business to me was worth. Right. Then I talked to you Coran and I said let's take it off the market for now. Let me, work on it a little more I can, I can build it a little bigger than we will for sure get the number that I want. The two of us talked and you agreed. Yeah, Mark, let's do that. That's great. Meanwhile, while this was happening and there was still one offer kind of out in the offer universe that we just hadn't heard back from. When we did by the time we heard back from the last offer I had already in my mind decided that I wasn't going to sell and I know that that sounds really wishy washy but selling your business is super duper emotional. We decided we were going to sell our business. You go through that whole process and then to say, you know what we're not getting the offer that we want. Then to say, no, okay, now we're 100 percent going to take the business back and then to have the final offer comeback back. That was everything I asked for completely. If that offer would have come two weeks sooner, I would've sold. But it was just such an emotional thing for us to go from selling 100 percent and not selling to 100 percent. Really in that time when we decided not to sell, we got really excited about the business and things we could do and I'm just kind of fell in love with the business again. Then that's why we decided ultimately to just pass on the offer.
Yeah, for sure. Which isn't an easy thing to do because like you said you went through that whole emotional rollercoaster of I guess even in the beginning when you first list the business there's always some doubt of whether you'll even get interest how people will value the business. I'll just speak to deal structure a little bit because I think that was something that definitely played a role in this. The investors that we were talking the buyers that we're talking to we're providing some pretty pointed feedback on your business. I was definitely and still am a fan of the brand that you've built in the business that you built. I felt like the market needed to pay a premium for this. I know I said to in the beginning if we're not getting interests, let's take it off the market. Are you 100 percent sure you want to sell this? Because I felt we were probably going out too early to really get you the value that I feel the business needed or deserved basically with what you'd put in. We started getting feedback from investors about different pieces of the business and some of the initial offers we were getting before those final two where you mentioned inventory. One of the deals was just horrible. We always present offers of course. If there's an offer that comes in we'll talk about it, let our clients know. I had to tell you about this deal that I knew you wouldn't take it. Essentially the offer and allegedly this buyer, they're very active in the space, allegedly. They've got deals across like this before the way the deal broke down, you were essentially going to get paid for inventory at close only. Then a three year earn out to get you to your multiple that you're wanting. The business had to still perform and you weren't operating once you, as a seller, once you released control of the business, anything that's performance based, you really need to question what's actually going to be part of that deal. I got a little bit upset on the call with the buyer and said would you accept this offer? They said, well look people have accepted these offers. I said fine I'll present it but when there was no way my clients taking this and then we saw performance based earnout. One thing there's quite common right now is seller financing and I'll do other episodes or all on this. Then you've got a just hold backs where there's a portion of cash that's held back for a period of time, which is quite common. When you talk to friends and they say, look I sold my business for 4x or whatever the list price was if you can ask them what the deal structure was in my business that's all I'm interested in is what the deal structure was. How did it break down and what was the result that's really important. Yeah, that's a good thing and then the deal structure, what are they surprised about?
I mean, after time I realized that anybody can make any kind of offer. I don't even know why I'm surprised. But there was one person who wanted me to stay on for basically I think it was Mark, I want you to work full time for us for six months with an option for us to continue having you work full time for a year and you gotta be kidding. Like, Who would ever take that kind of offer? I mean this is what you're going to learn. We know when anybody is anybody new is going to learn when they decided to sell their business. There's a lot of different kinds of offers out there.
Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing is understanding the potential options and coming up with a game plan before going to market. It can make it easy to filter out what offers and also from our perspective as advisors going out to market as who should we target with this deal, which of the buyers we're talking to already have the best fit on the deal and sometimes staying in the deal and getting access to capital and expanding, maybe help them acquire other brands. There's a lot of buyers in that space right now that could be interesting. But when that deal came in you, you don't work full time now full time. What exactly does full time mean?
Awesome. I got to be honest, it was an emotional rollercoaster on my side too at that point in time. But you know, I 100 percent. You're a mate of mine and it was tough at the time that I agree I think the short answer is we went out a little too early and we were punching above where the market was and that was the case. That was a good learning on both sides. During the process, you touched on this a little bit, but a lot of the buyer interest we had where we're seeing obviously they pointed out some of the flaws in the business but the vast majority, this as a brand that was what you've done a good job building the brand and here is what we would do after acquisition or here is what we wish you had have done. Now that you've taken the foot off the pedal on selling, what are you focusing on with the business now and how does your day to day change right now?
That's a good question. When I decided to take the business back again, still a pretty emotional time. I have to be honest with like, I still don't know if I made the right decision. There's some days I'm like man maybe I should have taken that offer but that ship has sailed. I decided, okay, let me double down on this Amazon business and even that decision has changed a little bit over the short amount of time that on the deal came off the market. What we heard a lot from buyers was something like Mark, if your business was doing 25 percent off of Amazon, it'd be much more valuable to us. Which means in my case, I have a Shopify store. Could I and should I spend my time and effort building up my brand to be off Amazon?
This is what buyers said they wanted easier said than done. I'm right now like 96 percent Amazon. I'm glad I built the brand that I have but that doesn't mean I know how to necessarily drive traffic to Shopify. Get them to convert, get them to come back to the site. There's a lot more to having your own e-commerce channel than just opening the Shopify store. What I've been really been focused on in the last month is optimizing my business instead of thinking about new products I want to launch and grow. I want to optimize, which means I have my sourcing agent in China looking for other factories that make the same product either the same or hopefully even better at a much lower cost. I'm also working on optimizing my paid ad spend.
I'm really focusing on how do I squeeze the business that I've got to just be much more of a profit generating machine. The reason why I kind of want to do that now is I really want to look the, one of the great things, the ideas behind selling your businesses, you're going to walk with a big lump sum of cash. Amazon business generally isn't, if you're doing your Amazon business right, you're probably not taking a lot of cash home at the end of the day because it's a very cash intensive business if you have a few successful products and you launch a few more, it just all eats up all your cash and future inventory. Now I want to take some of that cash that I would have gotten from the sale and just stick it away in the bank and not think about it. Maybe if I do that for the next six to eight months and have a nice tidy nest egg and feel much more secure and get some of the benefits that I would have had if I would've sold.
I think that's a great idea. Something that is a legitimate second option to selling. You mentioned that at the top of the show when we first started about the fear fearside of things and cash in the bank and some more runway can definitely help with that. Diversifying outside of your business can also help with that. That's a great. I think that's awesome. Any thoughts yet on whether you want to sell this business in the future or are you for right now just happy to keep optimizing and taking the cash flow?
I definitely think I would sell it in the future. It's going to be interesting to see like how much I can manage to grow the profit margin of this business and at the same time decrease the amount of time I've put into it. If I can really do that where I started to see let's say a 20 percent uptake in the profit margin that I take home, the money that goes into my bank account and I'm working less and less everyday then then potentially no. Then it potentially, if I see that as realistic as a realistic option, then then why not just keep it as a cash generating machine? Certainly there's always the fear you're playing in someone else's playground, you're working off of Amazon's platform. They can make changes and they will and you're going to deal with it but if I can hold onto this business long enough to take home the amount of money that I would have made in the sale and still have the business that's a huge win for me. I need to do that to prove to myself that I made the right decision.
Yeah, absolutely. That's something that a lot of people don't think. They think it's binary. It's either you sell or you don't sell. One of the biggest problems after an exit is what do you do with the cash because a pile of cash sitting in the bank is nice at first but once it starts to depleating, unless you have a another cash flow source or income coming in there's a difference between income flowing into your bank and a bunch of money in the bank depleting. There's almost no matter how much that amount is I believe it. It will always feel different if it's money coming in. You definitely want to start looking at where to deploy that money and even start before you're thinking about exiting, start playing with different income producing assets and figure out how to do that.
Oftentimes people do go to sell the business and then turn around and say shit, how do I generate income out of this money? It's a smart play to start looking at that before exiting even if you're not looking to exit. I think this was a really interesting conversation. Thank so much for jumping on the call here and taking us through this emotional rollercoaster we've both been on is there anything else you'd like to talk about. Typically if we're talking to someone thinking about selling, I think is the main target for this particular episode. If you were advising a friend and they said, Mark you went through the process and you decided not to sell what advice would you give them? What perspective would you do you have questions that you would say to someone, look think about both sides selling and not selling and what sort of advice would you give?
No, I mean here's the thing. Everything you just said about planning your exit before you make it, figure out where are you going to do with the money? Figure out maybe some side hustles to get some cash generating outside of the business that you're going to sell. I agree with all of that. Our mutual friend Dan wrote a book called Before The Exit that walks through that step by step and makes it very clear and I'll say this because I read the book before I decided to sell and he definitely in that book makes a case for not selling.
In theory I understood what he said but I still wanted a big chunk of cash to take home. Right? I went ahead and said, no I'm going to sell this business Coran, let's do it. It was only after I went through the emotional rollercoaster, which he talks about in the book, like I went through everything that he talks about in the book. I read the book again after I decided not to sell and it made a whole lot more sense to me because I just went through everything that he talked about even though the people are going to give advice, hey do all these things, what you're gonna do with the money now, what you're going to do with your time, have a plan for how you're going to start making more money. Again, unless you are super diligent about that stuff. Unfortunately I had to go through it. I had to go through that emotional rollercoaster to understand all these things that you just talked about. If someone asked me like, hey, should I sell, I would walk through all these same questions that you just said. I'd say what are you gonna do with your time? How are you going to make money? If that person said I just want the money, I just want a big fat stack of money. I know I would say, okay I get it. But at some point you're going to have to face these issues. You know, let's say you got that million dollars you're looking for now what? What are you gonna do tomorrow? Well, I'm going to take some time off. I'm just going to go hiking. Okay, that's great for a month then what?
You may actually find out if you have. I've been doing quite a bit of this personally at the moment and it's easy to think that that money is the answer or the thing that you need. What have noticed myself with writing my own goals and assessing where things are at is you can, if you write down what you actually want to do with the cash one you probably don't need as much cash as you think but also you can start doing a lot of this stuff already. It's almost like kind of delaying these experiences for no reason. One of the things you and I were talking about was he wanting to go skiing around the world and that you could do that right now, there's nothing stopping you from going, doing a ski trip and maybe doing it consistently for a whole year would get either tiring or impact your business somehow.
But that's it's essentially 80 percent, 90 percent of what you were thinking anyway. I think it's a really a good thought process to go through. I've got friends and we've got mutual friends on both sides of these camps keep the business generating, make wealth elsewhere as well. Also at some point have your business ready to sell. I think that's probably the one thing that I advise someone like yourself that isn't a position as always, keep an eye on what the value of the business could be. Make sure it's in a somewhat sellable position because if you ever needed to sell the business then that's an option for you. If you're completely just squeezing all the cash out of it's declining over time. That's not going to be a sellable asset that's a choice as well. You could definitely do that but I'm always keep one eye on, on the value of the business and you've been through this process that'd be easy for you to keep an eye on that and have both at the same time basically. That's awesome.
Cool. Well I love the it. You were able to come on today and give your perspective. One thing I've always been impressed when we talk as is how clear you are on what you want, what you don't want and focusing just on that and I think that's a really great skill set to have to have and something that people often don't think about.appreciate you brother. Thanks for coming on the show. No problem. I really appreciate the conversation.