*Since the interview Nate is set to leave Concord and go onto his next adventure and we can’t wait to see what he does next!
From a hippie commune to the board room, Nate had a career as an investment manager at a Private Equity Group focused on real estate before becoming CEO of Samuel French a Theatrical Licencing Company founded in 1830 an insolvent company he turned around and eventually exited. Now Nate is moving on from Samuel French and Concord onto his next adventure.
- Growing up in a hippie commune
- Real estate investment
- Crossovers between industrustries (real estate/theatre)
- Reviving and insolvent company and turning into growth
- Company culture
- The sale process (building an advisory team)
- Integrating systems and teams
- Understanding your buyer type
Mentioned in this episode:
We have Nathan Collins joining us on the call and before I introduce Nathan, I just want to talk about some high points and why you might find this episode. Interesting we met through a mutual friend Emily, and I've since thanked her in person for connecting us, which is awesome. Nate's high points here. He grew up in a hippie commune. I can't say that without smiling. He had a career in investment as an investment manager at a private equity group focused on real estate. We're going to talk a little bit about that. Then he became CEO of a company called Samuel French, which is a theatrical licensing company founded in 1830 then he led that company through a turnaround and exited the company. We've got quite a lot to cover here. Nate, thanks for coming on the call.
Hey, thank you for having me. Really happy to be here. Yes, please call me Nate because of my background. Oftentimes he will say hey, what does Nate stand for? Of course I tell them it's short for nature which it's not but it seems appropriate.
Excellent. Well, we did talk about everything other than the Hippie commune last time we were talking before we hit record. Could you tell us a little bit about what that was like growing up in a hippie commune and how did that come about?
Sure. I just kind of have to start by saying I'm definitely the black sheep of my family. I have a background in private equity and capital markets. I'm a true capitalist. But the irony is that I am really also a socialist, right? I grew up on a hippie commune in Woodstock, New York, the Woodstock that you probably all know. I like to say that I kind of went from commune to boardroom cause that has a nice little ring to it. My parents were hippies and they dropped out in the late sixties and early seventies trying to find a different lifestyle than what many of my contemporaries now. It was a big piece of land up in the Catskill mountains that a bunch of families shared and we shared responsibilities. I was born in a log cabin didn't have any electricity. What's funny is my friends loved to come over and hang out during the day because we had all these areas to explore and there were lots of people on the commune and it was lots of fun and people would play music and stuff. But none of my friends like to sleep over. I think it was the fact that one night, my mom and my dad would serve us Tahini on rice cakes, which was far different than what most kids were eating at that time in the seventies and then we didn't have TV and if they wanted to go to the bathroom, they had to go about 200 yards to the outhouse and not many kids were accustomed to going to outhouses. I didn't have a lot of sleepovers as a kid.
Wow, that's awesome you grew up on a commune. When did capitalism like you said the black sheep kind of angle takeover and how did you get into private equity in the first place?
Yeah ,I'm not sure when it developed. I remember being a little kid and my dad saying something to the effect of you want silver spoons but you only have wooden spoons? Or there's some adage along those lines but I guess he was always saying that I always had really expensive taste but we didn't have anybody for it. Then I ended up going to school for architecture in university and one day I remember meeting my mother's broker investment broker cause she had a little money and she was always big into supporting local businesses and he had a local investment broker and he was showing me that you could make money by trading or just by basically like video games. It looked like video games to me and I thought that was the greatest thing I'd ever seen in my entire life. I immediately switched my major and went into finance and just being a math nerd that I was gravitating it or picked it up really quickly. From there went into capital markets and then private equity, Realestate investment. It was really fun for me. But at the same time I still have that inner hippie, right? I still look at things a little bit differently. Well I guess everybody looks at things differently but I like to think I look at things differently and I still value a lot of the things that I learned growing up. For me culture is paramount. When we hear at Samuel French, when we were really building our culture, we thought that gratitude trust fund were keystones. We do summer solstice parties because the summer solstice is the greatest day of the year.
At the end of meetings we sit in a circle and we give gratitude one another and thank each other for being awesome teammates. That's really, I think that sets the tone for the organization, especially when you go through a really tough meeting where there's a lot of tension at the end of that meeting when you can say, Hey I want to thank you for giving me insights that I didn't have and pushing me on these details that really sets a good tone for the organization. Big socialists still have a lot of inner hippie. I'm sorry, big capitalist has still have a lot of inner hippie.
I think there is actually a lot more crossover than most people think, especially when it comes to culture. I just want to touch on a little bit more about the real estate side of things before we go into how you ended up becoming CEO of Samuel French. What were you mostly focused on when we spoke last time? We briefly spoke about value adds and turnarounds and real estate itself that later helped you in the company. What was your main focus in the real estate side before switching over?
Right. I worked as an asset manager, an asset manager in real estate investment. Basically my company, we invest in large commercial buildings, office industrial and then I would be in charge of managing that building once we've acquired it. But also I was part of the acquisition process. In real estate of course you buy buildings and the way you value it is based on expected future cash flows. What is I guess what's kind of interesting and I think you're going with this is when I took over Samuel French which is a theatrical licensing and publishing company, people were saying how can you do that you know nothing about theater. It's true. I really do. I really didn't know anything about theater. One of the things that I learned very quickly when I took over was, although it's a completely different industry, it's the exact same business model.
In the theatrical licensing, what we did was we entered into agreements with playwrights, musical composers, lyricists to represent their shows in a specific territory for a specific amount of time. The way that we entered into those agreements is that we'd pay them in advance and that advance was based on expected future cash flows. just like real estate, right? You are making an analysis of how the cash flows, the future cash flows of this specific property will pan out and then you acquire the property or the play or musical and then you try to maximize those cash flows. There were actually, it turned out that there was a big overlap. I like to say that the theatrical licensing business is really it's intellectual property acquisition and exploitation. That's what it is at its foundation.
That's the socialists meets the capitalists right there.
It's truly the capitalists. Of course. What just like every property, every piece of real estate is different. Every play or musical is different and it's beautiful art. No one can substitute another, right. It's they're all unique. I had the blessing to work in such a creative field with fantastic people. I really enjoyed that.
Oh, awesome. We've talked a little bit about Samuel French but there's a couple of pieces that we've spoken about this company that just blew my mind. Really. I looked at the website, I don't go to the theater to be completely honest. I had no idea what the company did. I went and looked it up and founded in 1830 and as you mentioned, it's a family was a family owned company. There were multiple layers of family ownership over that time, which would have been pretty interesting to deal with and you got voted as the CEO. Could you tell us a little bit about how just quickly how that happened and then we can jump into what you did once he was CEO?
Sure. yes, the company was founded in 1830 my great grandfather was the secretary of the company back in 1903 when the company was sold by Samuel French son to the senior executive team of Samuel French and my great grandfather being one of those members thus became a shareholder. Those shares had kind of trickled down from generation to generation in our family. We were a minority shareholder of the company but back in the early two thousands my mother passed along some shares to me and being the capitalist that I am, I quickly joined the board of directors in this company, in this organization, and that was very exciting to me. But then in 2010 we realized as a board that we needed to take the company into a different direction because at the time the company was insolvent. Fortunately we had, it's a very good business model that allowed for a lot of mismanagement over the years, decades but we were able to turn that around very quickly.
When I joined in January, 2011 some very easy things, right? I don't want to say that I am a genius executive businessman. I think anytime enter into an organization that has had with the legacy of Samuel French, you're going to find that a lot of processes have just been around for a long time and maybe are not up to date. That's how it was when I got to Samuel French, our processes were outdated, our systems were antiquated. I was ashamed, I was embarrassed to tell people where I worked because I was afraid they were going to look us up on the Internet and see our website. It was just such a bad website. the first year that I was there and we really spent the time building a new website and then also integrating really state of the art systems that created a scalable business for us because we represent over 10,000 titles in the US and the UK and worldwide but we have offices in New York, London, and LA. We needed a really good scalable system.
We also have a pretty significant retail operation. Both, we had it in brick and mortar and we also had it online but we needed a system that an ecommerce system that could work well with our licensing system. We ended up building a ground up ERP basically and then connected it with some of the best SAS systems, salesforce and accounting systems and licensing systems. We did a lot of work. We did tremendous amounts of work. I felt like every single month we are doing a new deployment of a new version of the website or systems but it ended up working out really well. When we sold to the company that just bought us Concorde. Which is a much larger company and they are primarily in the music business but they have been entering the theatricals business recently. We were part of a roll up of several companies in our space. We were able to migrate our systems to the Concord Organization and they're adopting most of what we built. That felt really good. We're all here at Samuel French really proud that we could build something that they valued much. Yeah.
Let's one of the biggest issues with mergers and acquisitions especially when a larger company acquires a smaller company is integrating all the systems in those companies. My wife was actually part of an integration project and it just, I'd see her at the end of the day. Yeah. It wasn't something that looked like a lot of fun, I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised that they wanted to integrate your systems if they were up to date and humming along, that's pretty awesome. While you were going through this restructuring and optimizing the business or not really optimizing, I guess just bringing it into this century. What was the biggest surprise for you was, was there anything you found that was just a gold mine that had been put off to the side or was it literally just bringing all the systems up to speed and then you could actually get some visibility into the company?
Hmm, let me think. I would say that the greatest gold mine I found was there were people in the organization who had been buried under long term managers and these people were really knowledgeable and excited to move the company forward. When I took over, right there was naturally there was some resistance. Well let's just start this way when your company's insolvent, everybody hates you, right? Clearly you've been mismanaging the company for Awhile. Our customers hated us because we were providing bad service, our clients that the author's hated us because we were providing bad service and our employees hated us because we were mismanaging the organization for a long time. when I came in some guy with no theatrical experience, of course there were a bunch of managers who had been leading the organization who were not happy about that and obviously naturally have some attrition immediately.
We were able to take these employees who were waiting for this opportunity for a couple of years to really help take this organization into the future. As somebody who knew nothing about our company, well very little about our company. Very little about the industry I really relied on them to help to really build the strategy, create the goals, execute the goals and I was there to support them. I think was instrumental in getting us out of where we were in the first few years. Some of those people are still with the team and some people moved on because they had this great experience and then our competitors saw what we were doing and got really excited or nervous about what we were doing and stole some of our team members. It was great opportunities for them to go to competitors and continue to grow.
I'm really happy for them. But most of what I did because I didn't know much about the industry was as I said just helping them build the strategic and the policies for the organization. But then sitting back and just acting like an investment advisor. Right. I think you and I talked about this last time. Every single dollar that you spend in an organization is an investment. The different managers would put forth proposals like we should spend money on this new play or we should be spending money on this new system or we should be spending money on this summer solstice party. Whatever it was my job to sit back and say okay, what has the greatest ROI for this $500 for this $5,000 for this $50,000
Sorry, I've got to jump in. I got that as a concept when it's a financial matter. Buying a new play or the system you can kind of work backwards but how do you quantify an ROI for a summer solstice party
Attrition. You quantify it by attrition and it's my job as the leader of the organization to make sure that the people that are on our team are engaged enough and compensated enough to stay for as long as we need them to be here. Sometimes it's not a direct correlation. Sometimes that $500 or a party or a $5,000 for a party, you don't really you can't say oh that is why this person stayed. But I can tell you this, when I first started we had about 30% attrition annually and last year we had less than 10% and most of those people were leaving to go back to school to get their master's or because they want to leave New York it wasn't because they were unhappy with the organization. In fact a couple people last year came to me and they said, hey I got this offer from somewhere else and I'm thinking of taking it and the salary is 20% higher, can you match that? A couple of times in those two times I was like I'm sorry I can't but what it sounds like a great opportunity if you take it. I totally understand. Then they came back to me like a week later and said I've decided to stay here just because I really love it here. Maybe it was something else but I like to think it's just that they really liked being part of the culture here.
Okay. Well yeah, I think that's super underrated. Not just the ROI on the party but also looking at longevity. When you've got a hundred odd staff that's a big deal. If you're having to replace 30 people a year that's expensive.
It is. I don't know what the exact numbers are and I'm bet you can find out from HBS article or something to that effect or INK but you can figure Out how much money you waste replacing people who've left. And I bet it's something about, I bet it's equivalent to 50% of their annual salary or more and that adds up. Not spending that money on creating a fun and engaged culture is a poor decision from an investment manager.
It's not always about the direct return. That is a future loss that you've avoided that's really interesting. I like that approach to people management. That's cool.
Oh, trust me, I've also lost some great people. I'm not infallible. I don't want anybody to think that I think I know all the answers because I don't. But I love that.
Well, that's the best part of business. Mark Cuban calls it winning at the sport of businesses is one of his books or his book, I think it's the only one he's got. But I love that analogy to sports because you're not always going to win. You don't always know the outcome. You just get out there and play every day and see what happens. Just keep trying to do better than yesterday. That's all business really is. But no, it was cool that you have, you realize that. That's awesome. You're incredibly humble for someone that's done, done what you've done. Let's dig into this a little bit deeper. There's a couple of high points here you grew the core business by over 50% and EBITDA by 12x times through all of this. That's pretty impressive.
That was a mix of revenue growth and expense allocation we stopped doing dumb things. When I got here we had our distribution warehouse which we were doing ourselves on sunset boulevard.
Which is perhaps some of the most expensive real estate in the country. One of the first things that we did was we outsourced it to a great third party facilitator in Illinois, which saved us like something like $700,000 a year right off the bat. It was a mix of growing revenues and cutting expenses but I don't think that we ended up cutting too many expenses. We just re-allocated our investments instead of wasting money by having our warehouse on Sunset Boulevard, we put that same money into new systems to make ourselves more efficient.
Yeah, that's great. Awesome. Then as a group, um, you came up with the decision to sell the business. once the business was solvent again and grew massively over what period, how many years did that take do you think to grow the core business 50% and Ebitda by 12 times?
Let's see the first couple of years was all about was about managing our expenses that we didn't really see, we didn't see revenue growth there and we stopped acquiring as many plays and musicals in those first few years. We did see bottom line growth because we were cutting some expenses actually a lot of expenses but then we started after year two or three once we had solidified our core business, right. Once we became solid in our core business which is I think you can't do anything until you are solid in your core business. We really started expanding into adjacent businesses or expanding our product offering and we started focusing more on not just plays but more on musicals and that had those musicals have greater popularity, they're more commercial and a lot more revenue streams. That's how we ended up growing our licensing business. Then we started doing that really in year three, four it takes a while. It's a long lead time. We had to convince a lot of people that we were no longer musty and dusty. Let me tell you that changing people's perception of an organization is a really large ship to turn, takes a long time. We spent a lot of time doing it, made a lot of missteps, but also learned a lot. In retrospect I see that I should have as the leader of the organization, I was really focused on the internal organization and our culture, which is all very important and you cannot you cannot ignore that at all. But I should have also been spending more time with our playwrights and the agents that represent them. it took us a while and by the time that we were selling the company, we had really established a great name in the industry, one of the major players in the industry. That time period took six, seven years and we sold at the end of the eighth year.
Wow. Okay. that was time well spent. But like you said you had to really focus on one aspect at a time. Then what was the catalyst to the board saying we want to sell the business now we've done this turn around. What was it, the steps leading up to the decision to start selling the company?
Yeah, I'd say that the reason that we ended up selling the company is because the original management team that bought the company from Samuel French's son back in 1903 those people are dead for a long time. Their children inherited the stocks and then their children inherited that the shares. By 2018/2019 there's just not as much engagement from the shareholders as in the past. These shareholders didn't buy the shares in the company as investments. They just inherited these shares from their relatives and they really didn't know that much about the company. Some did, some didn't but they were removed. They were pretty far removed. Between the fact that they weren't really engaged in the company and then the fact that the transformation was complete. We'd gone from worst to first and then due to the fact that we're in a really favorable economic conditions these days.
Right. We figured, or the shareholders came to me, a few of them and said hey we'd really be interested in exploring a sale. We got the board got together and we said all right let's go ahead and hire an investment banker and see what's out there. We did that and we looked at the landscape of what was happening in our industry and we identified this one company that Concord. That was very active in acquiring our competitors. We approached them and said hey, would you like to make a deal? The reason that we didn't do a process is because our business is really built on the ability to sign new deals, new deals for representing titles. We felt that if we were running a process word would get out to the street that we were selling and then we would not be able to win new deals.
We wouldn't win the rights to represent these new titles. We didn't want to threaten our business like that.
I think that's a really smart play. To think about it holistically. Some people would think just go through a process to get the highest value. That's really smart.
Yeah, well it worked out. It was really, I guess it was very fortuitous that this one company that had bought a few of our companies was engaged in buying businesses not based on economics but based on their strategy. Why is the term it was a strategic purchase? Yes. They looked at us not from the in the same way a private equity company would look at us or a bunch of investors but they looked at us as a business would look at us and they saw how we fit and they saw our great catalog. They saw our great systems, they saw our great team. It turns out that they offered us a deal that was just absolutely tremendous. I mean, it was much higher than we any of us had expected. Even though I had kind of misgivings about selling the company because I'd spent much time and effort on it and I liked executing on the strategies that we'd created, the deal was good. My mandate was to maximize shareholder value. This was much higher than anybody had expected. Of course we said yes but at the end of the day it really turned out to be a win, win deal, right? The shareholders got a great price and most of these shareholders it wasn't a bunch of wealthy investors it was just librarians and retired people and somebody who works in retail. This money really helped them out. It was great for the shareholders.
At the same time, it was great for Concord because they got a company that could provide them with some of the most advanced systems and processes in the industry and a great team with a culture of innovation and execution. They turned out to be really good for everyone.
This kind of sounds like a dream at this point. Most people I talk to as an advisor myself, most people I talk to want this outcome with that business. I know as a deal maker this is my job. I know that that would not have been completely smooth sailing. I also know that because of nondisclosures you wouldn't be able to reveal every step of the way but the concept of Concord acquiring Samuel French was a no brainer for them. It was a great offer on your side. How did the process actually go from the time you agreed to terms or signed to terms through diligence and actually handover and then what happened next? Were there any bumps in the road along the way in anything you'd do different?
Yeah, , I think with any deal. Well let me backup. This was my first deal and this is the only deal that I've ever done and I look forward to doing many more deals in the future. But I can only speak to this, my experience in this but what I would say is I would imagine that every deal has bumps. The greatest lesson that I learned is that you cannot underestimate the value of a good investment banker and the value of a good attorney, a good firm backing you up. They helped manage this process all the way through it. When I originally started looking at investment bankers and attorneys to help out with a potential deal. I interviewed maybe nine investment bankers and 12 attorneys and there were some who said they could do it for half of the price that we eventually agreed on with our investment bankers and attorneys. But I thank God every day. I'm very thankful that we chose this investment banker and these attorneys because they were professionals, they had done it a thousand times and they made it easy for me. Of course I had a lot of sleepless nights and working on the weekend and late into the night. At the end of the day they probably saved us millions of dollars in or we the shareholders were able to receive millions more dollars because of their efforts then had I hired some lesser banker or lesser attorneys.
Yeah, I think that's a great recommendation that the due diligence on advisors, the whole advisory team build a deal team around you is what I normally advise clients to do. Sometimes you think that one buyer is enough and in this case it was, which is awesome that I can count on one hand the amount of times that's probably the case. But definitely a team is that is there to help you, the people that have done it before in your space, whatever the industry is. With the MNA space specifically, those terms of buyer can ask for whatever they want whether you should agree to that or whether you should toe the line is one thing, what standard is another and what we should negotiate and push back on is another thing. It's a, it's more of an art than a science. But yeah, having advisors better is helpful and also someone to vent to on both sides. We often feel like therapists at some, some points in deals.
Yeah, I definitely think that our attorneys and our investment banker were therapists to me at some times I got really frustrated or confused. It was great. They were always there for me.
Excellent. Cool. You went through the sale process. Yes, there were some bumps along the way, but you got it done. What are you doing now? Are you still involved with the company, right?
Yes, now I'm the general manager of the Theatrical Division of Concord, which is really exciting because as I mentioned they rolled up three of my other competitors and us. That's four of us and we're going through the integration right now, which is interesting to see. Fortunately, most of what they're doing is just adopting our systems that makes it pretty easy. We're not trying to jam a bunch of systems together or different processes together. They're basically pushing over their catalogs onto our system and we're also updating like our front end to accommodate the different titles and the different labels. But what's great now is that not only are we representing the authors that Samuel French has represented over the past many, many decades like Agatha Christie, Neil Simon and Ken Ludwig and new writers like Sarah Rule and older just people that you know like Tennessee Williams and Thornton wilder.
But we also are working with all of the other catalogs. For example, all the Andrew Lloyd Webber, all of the Rodgers and Hammerstein titles the musicals that like a chorus line, right? Like the wizard of Oz. I'm really happy that we were able to build the organization that we did because in the team that we did, because this integration is going smoother than I expected and sometimes I'm wondering do they even need me because it's something they feel proud about but it's also something to feel really nervous about my team has this well I don't they don't even need me here. I see the team like executing on everything. that's really fun. But I'm really just spending my time now supporting them, supporting the team, being there for when they have issues that they need to either talk about or are they need solutions to that. And continuing to drive innovation. We had a big culture of innovation at Samuel French and I really want to see that continue at Concord Theatricals and Concord in general because innovation is important. that's really what we're working on now.
Okay, great. If you,you can talk a little bit about this was part of the deal for the bulk or all of the executive team to come over and is that for a period of time and what's your thoughts on the team staying longer term? Is that part of the deal as well?
Not the entire executive team came over unfortunately. But Concorde had a group of really seasoned, experienced, wonderful executives and they really had to make a decision on what the best team would be. Although we lost a few people most of the team came over. I'd say we ended up with 90% of the team transferring over to Concorde, which has been great and they're doing a fantastic job now. It's sad to see some of those people who really spent their energy and time building Samuel French, seeing them depart but at the same time they can point to Samuel French and say I was part of that and they will find other great opportunities because of the experience. They had a great chance to grow and learn and be part of a wonderful community that we had here for a long time. In general, everybody's feeling pretty positive.
Oh, awesome. Well, I've really enjoyed this conversation and the story has had many twists and turns and I could keep talking for hours but is there anything else you'd like to mention say you're talking to a CEO or a founder of another company. Is there any advice you would give someone if they were going through a thought process of selling or how to think about the good and the bad side of selling? As a parting thought.
I guess a couple things that I think about is one know what your prospective buyer, your ideal buyer, what they're looking for? How are they going to value you? For some people it might be a multiple of EBITDA. Other people, it might be a multiple of revenue or average monthly users, right? Just understand what's important to the perspective to the ideal buyer and then run your business based on that. Then the other thing I would say is being prepared to work really hard when that deal is closing because it is a lot of work and as you're building your company make sure that you are very disciplined about keeping records and keeping those records accessible as thank goodness we had good systems because the amount, the volume of information that they wanted was tremendous and overwhelming at times. We were able to pull stuff up really easily but they still wanted more. Just have a good file maintenance system. Finally if you are not prepared to see somebody else raise your children then don't stay with the company after it's sold because that's basically what happens, right? You are giving ownership over to somebody else and they're going to do it differently and they may do it great or they may do it really poorly but either way you're going to disagree with the way they're doing it. Just keep that in mind.
Well that's three really strong points there. I love that. I want to highlight two parts of that at the first two that you mentioned understanding the buyer type. You mentioned that the group Concorde Company, Concord offered a way higher valuation for the business than you were expecting. That's partly because like you mentioned, they were looking at different drivers of value. Then say a financial buyer, like a private equity group or something like that would look at the business. Knowing who you're talking to or who you would appeal to is really good. But also you mentioned the diligence process. Now I just want to mention one more thing about diligence. Yes, diligence is painful and there's a lot of checklists to go through a checklist of checklists and it can get some points you always feel this even worth it at some point during the transaction, that will always happen. The thing to keep in mind here is this is a big transaction. The more Zeros on the end, the more nervous that people in the transaction are. The buy side are human as well. remember that. Also it not typically the people you're dealing with on the buy side that are asking these questions. It's their attorneys and it's also there lending sources. Whoever they're getting finance from also needs they're checkboxes covered as well. The M&A attorney and the financing partners usually drives the bulk of that load. We're going through a transaction right now with a company that's actually going public at the same time, which is very interesting and that they have extra oversight because that are about to become a public company. That raises complexity. But yes, the 100% willing to work three times harder during the diligence phase and a lot of the time that the quicker you can get back to those questions and provide the information, provide more information than they need, that's what gets the deal closed at the end of the day and gets you out of the deal quicker and onto the next piece.
Definitely keep that in mind. This has been super, it's been a great conversation. As I said I could keep talking all day about this stuff that we do have all the, both of us have other things to do today. Thank you once again for coming on the show and if you're open to it and people wanted to just reach out and find out more or just thank you for coming onto the show. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you?
Well, thank you for inviting me. It was really a pleasure sharing this and I wish that I had you as an advisor back six months ago because you can never have enough advisors when you're going through such a process or a big event like this but let's see anybody can reach out. I'd be happy to talk to people and share experiences. My email address is s [email protected]
Perfect. Awesome. I'll put that in the show notes as well and thank you once again for coming on the show night. I hope the audience gets a lot out of today's call and yeah, I can't wait to see what you do next.
Thank you very much. Bye.